PHP vs JAVA

[Tedd Sperling]

Hi guys:

A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.

Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)

Here are my two references:

http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all

http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y

But I do not know how accurate they are.

What say you?

Cheers,


tedd

_______________
tedd sperling
***@sperling.com

[Ashley Sheridan]

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web
Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what
references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a
teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?
Cheers,
tedd
_______________
tedd sperling
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?

Thanks,
Ash

[Tedd Sperling]

Post by Ashley Sheridan
Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
Thanks,
Ash

No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what he has to say.

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/

But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than "Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number.

I think there is more going on here than what I know.

For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"

Cheers,


tedd

_______________
tedd sperling
***@sperling.com

[Stephen]

Post by Tedd Sperling

Post by Ashley Sheridan
Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
Thanks,
Ash

No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to what he has to say.
http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/
But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than "Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java number.
I think there is more going on here than what I know.
For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"

I think that the overwhelming majority of Android apps are written in
JAVA. That explains its popularity.

[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Tedd Sperling

Post by Ashley Sheridan
Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
Thanks,
Ash

No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to
what he has to say.
http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/
But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than
"Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java
number.
I think there is more going on here than what I know.
For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the
max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the
college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an
overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"

Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language
;)
I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very
popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different
use-cases, thus saying "one is more popular" doesn't tell you anything
about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint:
they arent : :D).

Post by Tedd Sperling
Cheers,
tedd
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[Tedd Sperling]

Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as _web_-language ;)
I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different use-cases, thus saying "one is more popular" doesn't tell you anything about whether they are in competition against each other, or not (hint: they arent : :D).

Two things:

1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows the difference between Java and JavaScript.
2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is the main reason why things prosper.

Cheers,

tedd



_______________
tedd sperling
***@sperling.com

[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Just tell your teacher: Java isn't more popular than PHP as

_web_-language ;)

Post by Sebastian Krebs
I think too, that he actually meant javascript, which is indeed a very

popular client-side language. But javascript and PHP has different
use-cases, thus saying "one is more popular" doesn't tell you anything
they arent : :D).
1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows
the difference between Java and JavaScript.

OKOK, sorry -_-
But @topic: For example see
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language.

2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is
the main reason why things prosper.

I am not saying, that Java is bad, or it is not popular. It is just not
that popular in the web-ecosystem :)
There was one statement I remember (I don't know, where I got it from): A
static language doesn't fit very well into the dynamic web. :)

Cheers,
tedd
_______________
tedd sperling

[Lester Caine]

Post by Sebastian Krebs

Post by Tedd Sperling
1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows

Post by Tedd Sperling
the difference between Java and JavaScript.

OKOK, sorry -_-
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language.

Post by Tedd Sperling

Post by Tedd Sperling
2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is
the main reason why things prosper.

I think he is simply wrong in his interpretation of the facts. The number of
websites powered by PHP vastly exceeds Java and every other language
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
Says it all!

But you would never use PHP for a distributed application, and then
http://www.langpop.com/ comes into play when the fight is between Java and C/C++
and personally I'm happier with C/C++ than Java even on Android. But even though
you would not use PHP for distributed applications, it still gets a good 4th in
that chart as well.
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[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Lester Caine

Post by Tedd Sperling
1. He's not my teacher -- he is a fellow teacher AND a smart one! He knows

Post by Tedd Sperling

Post by Tedd Sperling
the difference between Java and JavaScript.

OKOK, sorry -_-
http://w3techs.com/**technologies/overview/**programming_language/all<http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all>
Really: Java is a good and mature language, but it is not a web-language.

Post by Tedd Sperling
2. In life, you will find that popularity (often over "which is best") is

Post by Tedd Sperling
the main reason why things prosper.

I think he is simply wrong in his interpretation of the facts. The number
of websites powered by PHP vastly exceeds Java and every other language
http://w3techs.com/**technologies/overview/**programming_language/all<http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all>
Says it all!
But you would never use PHP for a distributed application, and then
http://www.langpop.com/ comes into play when the fight is between Java
and C/C++ and personally I'm happier with C/C++ than Java even on Android.
But even though you would not use PHP for distributed applications, it
still gets a good 4th in that chart as well.

Exactly, but the initial explicitly states, that this is about web
development :D

Don't know, what I should think about langpop.com. A popularity listing,
that doesn't take github (or any other repo hoster, than google code) into
account? :? Its also quite outdated...

Post by Lester Caine
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[Tedd Sperling]

The article very clearly says..
No language can be considered as good just because there are more jobs for the same.

Yes, but I am not making a value (good/bad) judgment -- Instead I am asking for references supporting which language (Java or PHP) as being the most popular for Web Development?

Do you have any?

Cheers,

tedd

_______________
tedd sperling
***@sperling.com

[Tedd Sperling]

You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
Regards,
Liam

I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no support.

My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.

Cheers,

tedd


_______________
tedd sperling
***@sperling.com

[Marc Guay]

Here are two references from the Wikipedia article on Java in case you
haven't looked at them already.

http://www.langpop.com/
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

Post by Tedd Sperling

You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
Regards,
Liam

I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking. Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is no support.
My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.
Cheers,
tedd
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[David OBrien]

Post by Tedd Sperling

You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
Regards,
Liam

I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there
are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking.
Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The
people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is
no support.
My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.
Cheers,
tedd
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tedd sperling
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[David OBrien]

Post by Tedd Sperling

You do realise you are on a PHP based user subscription, so the vast
majority will go with PHP, so you will get a one sided argument.
Regards,
Liam

I realize that many, maybe the majority, will be bias. HOWEVER -- there
are professionals on this list that do know and it is to them I am asking.
Remember, I am also asking for supporting documentation of their view. The
people who respond with just their opinion are doing just that -- there is
no support.
My nature is to seek the truth regardless of my bias.
Cheers,
tedd
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tedd sperling
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If your looking for popularity...
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all

[Bastien Koert]

I think the big takeaway there is that JAVA is one of the primary language
for larger companies and applications. Start ups tend to use smaller easier
to use tools like php / javascript / python / ruby.

I saw one figure recently that put php at 75% of websites out there (i
think that came out when google decided to support php for the app engine)

Post by Tedd Sperling

Post by Ashley Sheridan
Is he possibly getting confused with Javascript?
Thanks,
Ash

No, this guy is smarter than that -- he's pretty sharp -- so I listen to
what he has to say.
http://www.sitepoint.com/best-programming-language-of-2013/
But the link does not divide languages between Web and Other -- other than
"Android Java", which I do not believe is also included in the above Java
number.
I think there is more going on here than what I know.
For example, my college has numerous (over 3) JAVA classes filled to the
max, whereas my PHP class was canceled due to lack of students. Granted the
college could have advertised my PHP class more, but still there is an
overwhelming demand for Java Programmers. My questions is "Why?"
Cheers,
tedd
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[Stephen]

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.

I think you can use w3techs.com as a very reliable source.

But your teacher may have been talking about "javascript" which is not
the same thing as java despite the similarity in their names.

Javascript is part of the web page, and executes in the users browser.
It is very common and may rival PHP in frequency of use.

[Daniel Brown]

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?

While I couldn't find anything comparable - from the same source
and window of time - for Java trends on the web, there was an article
released by Netcraft in January of this year that shows PHPs continued
growth[1]. It may, at the least, provide a basis for comparison
should you or your adversary be so inclined to dig deeper.


^1: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2013/01/31/php-just-grows-grows.html

[shiplu]

What a co-incidence! I was searching PHP vs Python in google and
reading articles. Now a similar mail on my inbox. When any language
war goes on, everyone gets biased by the language he/she loves. It
applies here too. I think your college teacher loves Java.

During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?
Cheers,
tedd
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[Lester Caine]

Post by shiplu
During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".

'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably says it
all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand when coming in cold to
someone elses code ... Java is not much better ... but I still have to persist
with both since some key elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

[Paul M Foster]

Post by Lester Caine

Post by shiplu
During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".

'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably
says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand
when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much
better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key
elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(

Python may be "most readable", but it's a huge fail for two reasons:

1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.

2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language. (Don't even start in on C. It's a
compiled language.)

Java is an incredibly heavy language for web work. Much like Ruby but
more so.

I'll say it again-- one of the reasons for the popularity of PHP is its
similarity to C, at least a passing skill in which is common to most
programmers.

Paul

[Tedd Sperling]

Post by Paul M Foster

Post by Lester Caine

Post by shiplu
During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".

'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably
says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand
when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much
better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key
elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(

1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.
2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language.

And no ternary operator.

tedd

_______________
tedd sperling
***@gmail.com

[Dan Munro]

Post by Paul M Foster
1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.
2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language.

1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place
your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if
something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it
is.

2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python
and not python itself.

Post by Paul M Foster

Post by Paul M Foster

Post by Lester Caine

Post by shiplu
During PHPvsPython search I found this info graphic
https://www.udemy.com/blog/modern-language-wars/#. Some of the
statistics contain Java too. Also you can search "PHP" and "Web
Development" in big job sites and compare with same search but with
"Java".

'Python is arguably the most readable programming language' probably
says it all? Personally I find it almost impossible to understand
when coming in cold to someone elses code ... Java is not much
better ... but I still have to persist with both since some key
elements of a usable PHP IDE now rely on both :(

1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.
2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language.

And no ternary operator.
tedd
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[Andy McKenzie]

Post by Dan Munro

Post by Paul M Foster
1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.
2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language.

1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of place
your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if
something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it
is.
2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python
and not python itself.

I can't argue on point two, since that's where all of my worst failure have
come from. But as to indenting, I have had the problem of opening a file
on a new OS, only to find that the default editor there has wiped out my
formatting. With PHP, that's not a big deal: as long as I put my braces
in the right places, everything will continue to work. With Python -- or
any whitespace delimited language -- it's fatal, and I have to hope I can
exit without saving anything.

Andy

[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Andy McKenzie

Post by Dan Munro

Post by Paul M Foster
1. There are no statement terminators. Lose your indentation for ANY
reason and your program is well and truly screwed, in ways you can't
imagine.
2. Python programs fail in the most ungraceful way I've ever seen in an
interpreted programming language.

1. Indent properly. In php, if you put an open or close brace out of

place

Post by Dan Munro
your code will break in unexpected ways as well. If it's hard to tell if
something is indented properly, your code should be refactored so that it
is.
2. In my experience this has a lot to do with how some people use python
and not python itself.

I can't argue on point two, since that's where all of my worst failure have
come from. But as to indenting, I have had the problem of opening a file
on a new OS, only to find that the default editor there has wiped out my
formatting.

Who is with me? Thats a good point to restart the
tabs-vs-spaces-discussion, isn't?

*duckandrun*

:D

Post by Andy McKenzie
With PHP, that's not a big deal: as long as I put my braces
in the right places, everything will continue to work. With Python -- or
any whitespace delimited language -- it's fatal, and I have to hope I can
exit without saving anything.
Andy

[Pete Ford]

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?
Cheers,
tedd
_______________
tedd sperling

tedd,

Java is a meticulously-constructed language with very strict typing and
a large commercial organisation which purports to support and develop it.
PHP is a scruffy heap of loosely typed cruft which is easy to knock
together and build big things from, but has a semi-commercial and
community support structure.
Guess which one the big commercial organistations (banks, industry etc.)
prefer to trust?
Guess which is then popular for college courses since it provides the
students with a basis in something that is commercially desirable?
From my personal point of view, I started with BASIC, then FORTRAN (in
a scientific environment), then C/C++, then Java (which I saw as the
language C++ should have been), and then moved on to PHP in a search to
find a way of building web apps in the sort of timescales that
small-medium enterprises are prepared to accept.
Popularity is in the eye of the beholder...

Cheers
Pete

[Tedd Sperling]

tedd,
Java is a meticulously-constructed language with very strict typing and a large commercial organisation which purports to support and develop it.
PHP is a scruffy heap of loosely typed cruft which is easy to knock together and build big things from, but has a semi-commercial and community support structure.

Thanks for the info. :-)

FYI -- I am teaching both PHP and JAVA at college level and have taught both for several years as well as other Web Languages.

My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can be used server-side.

I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am up to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Thanks,

tedd

_______________
tedd sperling
***@gmail.com

[Steven Staples]

Post by Tedd Sperling
My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support
which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can
be used server-side.
I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach
Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am

up

Post by Tedd Sperling
to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you
set up your server, no?

I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript...
and next to that, would be asp, and then java. Do I have proof of this?
No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest,
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?". It is
virtually an immeasurable object. There are so many websites out there,
that you can't search them all...

PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for
all hosting companies.

Now, there is this link...
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does
not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the
numbers do not really speak out in this application.

Does it really matter? PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go
so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers.

But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years
professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP.
Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications.

[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Tedd Sperling
My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support
which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can
be used server-side.
I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach
Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am

up

Post by Tedd Sperling
to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you
set up your server, no?

No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the
"link" between the language and the network.

Post by Steven Staples
I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is html/php/javascript...
and next to that, would be asp, and then java. Do I have proof of this?
No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be honest,
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?". It is
virtually an immeasurable object. There are so many websites out there,
that you can't search them all...

Of course you cannot search them _all_, but again the link:
http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
There are good hints, how "the internet looks like". For example a hoster
can simply look at the products he sell. Services like w3techs.com use the
reports from the server themself (in most cases the headers), or the
file-ending (doesn't work anymore that good, since most sites hide them ;))
and extrapolate this.
Of course they are not exact, but I think they show the direction quite
accurate.

Post by Steven Staples
PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard for
all hosting companies.
Now, there is this link...
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING, does
not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the
numbers do not really speak out in this application.

Also it is the Tiobe-Index. Although it is widely-referenced, the way it
calculates their rankings is ... interesting. In fact it only tells you how
"loud" a community around a specific language is. So for example maybe Java
is #1, because it is so complex, that it leads to many questions in forums
and on stackoverflow. Or PHP is "only" #5, because most communication is on
IRC, or mailinglists. (disclaimer: Of course I faked this examples.
Actually I have no idea how the communities around Java and PHP "as a
whole" interacts primary, but I don't think, that they are all equal).
I just think, that the Tiobe-Index has a completely different view on "what
is a popular language", than I have.

Post by Steven Staples
Does it really matter? PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even go
so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting providers.

Nope, it doesn't matter :)

Post by Steven Staples
But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years
professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP.
Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications.
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[Dan Munro]

Post by Steven Staples
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Tedd Sperling
My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to

support

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Tedd Sperling
which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java

can

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Tedd Sperling
be used server-side.
I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also

teach

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Tedd Sperling
Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I

am

Post by Steven Staples
up

Post by Tedd Sperling
to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you
set up your server, no?

No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the
"link" between the language and the network.

Post by Steven Staples
I would tend to think that the biggest out there, is

html/php/javascript...

Post by Steven Staples
and next to that, would be asp, and then java. Do I have proof of this?
No, can I get proof, I doubt it, and are there stats on this? To be

honest,

Post by Steven Staples
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?". It

is

Post by Steven Staples
virtually an immeasurable object. There are so many websites out there,
that you can't search them all...

http://w3techs.com/technologies/overview/programming_language/all
There are good hints, how "the internet looks like". For example a hoster
can simply look at the products he sell. Services like w3techs.com use the
reports from the server themself (in most cases the headers), or the
file-ending (doesn't work anymore that good, since most sites hide them ;))
and extrapolate this.
Of course they are not exact, but I think they show the direction quite
accurate.

Post by Steven Staples
PHP is simple, and yet powerful to use, and is pretty much the standard

for

Post by Steven Staples
all hosting companies.
Now, there is this link...
http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
It shows Java as #1, and php as #5, but this is also for PROGRAMMING,

does

Post by Steven Staples
not specify web based programming vs desktop vs MAD (thanks tedd ;) ) so the
numbers do not really speak out in this application.

Also it is the Tiobe-Index. Although it is widely-referenced, the way it
calculates their rankings is ... interesting. In fact it only tells you how
"loud" a community around a specific language is. So for example maybe Java
is #1, because it is so complex, that it leads to many questions in forums
and on stackoverflow. Or PHP is "only" #5, because most communication is on
IRC, or mailinglists. (disclaimer: Of course I faked this examples.
Actually I have no idea how the communities around Java and PHP "as a
whole" interacts primary, but I don't think, that they are all equal).
I just think, that the Tiobe-Index has a completely different view on "what
is a popular language", than I have.

Post by Steven Staples
Does it really matter? PHP is very huge, widely used, and I would even

go

Post by Steven Staples
so far as to say the 'norm' for website developers, and hosting

providers.
Nope, it doesn't matter :)

Post by Steven Staples
But that is my $0.02, and for me, I have been with PHP for 7 years
professionally, and in college I took VB.net, ASP.net, C++, JAVA and PHP.
Only recently have I gotten into C# for desktop applications.
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[Stuart Dallas]

Post by Dan Munro

Post by Steven Staples
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/

That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering "how big is the internet," assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how many publicly responsive edge servers exist.

-Stuart

[Ashley Sheridan]

Post by Stuart Dallas

Post by Dan Munro

Post by Steven Staples
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/

That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering "how big is the internet," assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how many publicly responsive edge servers exist.
-Stuart
--
Stuart Dallas
3ft9 Ltd
http://3ft9.com/

I'd argue that a large proportion of really secure servers out there
won't respond to a lot of what Zmap pings out. Nmap works by throwing
out requests on a bunch of different ports, not just ping, which is
slow, so I'd be surprised if Zmap could really rival that while giving
the same results. Bearing in mind there are over 4,000 million (I won't
say billion, because that's a million million, despite what the
Americans say!) IPv4 address out there, 40 minutes is a ridiculous
amount of time to even scan half of that, especially given the fact that
IPv6 is being majorly pushed because IPv4 is apparently running out of
free address space! Then not forgetting that lots of websites exist on
the same IP address/range, I would say the article is lacking on so many
details as to be untrue.

Thanks,
Ash
http://www.ashleysheridan.co.uk

[Stuart Dallas]

Post by Dan Munro

Post by Steven Staples
in my opinion, that would be like asking "how big is the internet?".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2013/08/18/heres-what-you-find-when-you-scan-the-entire-internet-in-an-hour/
That's scanning IP addresses and doesn't come close to answering "how big is the internet," assuming that means how many sites are there rather than how many publicly responsive edge servers exist.

I'd argue that a large proportion of really secure servers out there won't respond to a lot of what Zmap pings out. Nmap works by throwing out requests on a bunch of different ports, not just ping, which is slow, so I'd be surprised if Zmap could really rival that while giving the same results. Bearing in mind there are over 4,000 million (I won't say billion, because that's a million million, despite what the Americans say!) IPv4 address out there, 40 minutes is a ridiculous amount of time to even scan half of that, especially given the fact that IPv6 is being majorly pushed because IPv4 is apparently running out of free address space! Then not forgetting that lots of websites exist on the same IP address/range, I would say the article is lacking on so many details as to be untrue.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's untrue, but it's certainly written with exaggerated implications.

-Stuart

[Stuart Dallas]

Post by Sebastian Krebs

Post by Steven Staples

Post by Tedd Sperling
My recent question was simply an attempt to get documentation to support
which server-side Web Language is the most popular. Both PHP and Java can
be used server-side.
I also realize that Java is used for native Android because I also teach
Mobile Application Development (MAD -- I even coined the name). So, I am

up

Post by Tedd Sperling
to my butt in languages (and people who think different than me) -- I'm
just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

Well, technically any language can be used server side, it is all on how you
set up your server, no?

No. But since node.js I lack an example :D But of course you need the
"link" between the language and the network.

The language and the '"link" between the language and the network' are two completely separate things. The "link," as you put it, is the web server. A web server doesn't need to do anything more than set up environment variables and run an executable, and even setting up the environment is technically optional. BASH can build web pages. I wouldn't recommend using BASH, but there's nothing technically preventing it.

Node.js is not the only way to run Javascript outside a browser, and other ways of doing so existed long before Node.js arrived. Most limitations people put on technology are artificial constructions rather than real constraints.


tedd: I wouldn't trust any stats you might find since, as has been pointed out, it's incredibly difficult to accurately measure.

I'd be careful with the word "popular" because it really depends on what you're measuring. If you're talking public websites then I'd agree that, anecdotally at least, PHP is more common than any other server-side language. If you're talking about public site visitors or page views it's definitely the most popular, but that's massively skewed by Facebook if you accept that their way of using PHP can still be called PHP. Enterprise usage of PHP is far lower, mainly due to Microsoft's dominance, but I get the feeling this is changing, albeit incredibly slowly.

If he means Java is the most popular as in "developers would prefer to use it" then I'd definitely disagree, but I wouldn't necessarily say that PHP is at the top of that list either.

Ultimately I'd want to know what he's trying to prove by saying that. If he's purely engaging in a "mine's bigger than yours" discussion I'd walk away, leave him to his petty games and actually accomplish something with the time instead.

-Stuart

[Lester Caine]

Post by Tedd Sperling
I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites
may be a better starting point, but there are no citations to the facts, they
are a little dated, and some sites are a little biased in their choices? Move to
the top 40 sites and PHP fares a little better -
http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/top-40-website-programming-languages/ but but this
data is a little dataed now. Personally I've always used the W3techs figures
when I'm doing talks as it is the only consistent source I've found. The
netcraft figures would be nice but they only run this intermittently, and last
January's figure of 244 million sites at 39% of machines seems a little at odds
with the W3techs ones?
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language continues
to show PHP rising at the expense of ASP and Java with Perl, Ruby and Python
having trouble to stay above 1% combined over the last year.
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

[Dan Munro]

Zmap works by being stateless, so while nmap records which requests go out,
zmap "fires and forgets", and encodes the request in such a way that the
response can provide whatever details it needs to continue the scan. No
magic here.

Post by Tedd Sperling
I'm just trying to get documentation to back up my what I think I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Programming_languages_used_in_**
most_popular_websites<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_languages_used_in_most_popular_websites>may be a better starting point, but there are no citations to the facts,
they are a little dated, and some sites are a little biased in their
choices? Move to the top 40 sites and PHP fares a little better -
http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/**top-40-website-programming-**languages/<http://rogchap.com/2011/09/06/top-40-website-programming-languages/>but but this data is a little dataed now. Personally I've always used the
W3techs figures when I'm doing talks as it is the only consistent source
I've found. The netcraft figures would be nice but they only run this
intermittently, and last January's figure of 244 million sites at 39% of
machines seems a little at odds with the W3techs ones? http://w3techs.com/
**technologies/history_overview/**programming_language<http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language>continues to show PHP rising at the expense of ASP and Java with Perl, Ruby
and Python having trouble to stay above 1% combined over the last year.
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contact<http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact>
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.**uk<http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk>
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[Larry Garfield]

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?
Cheers,
tedd

As others have said, he's simply wrong. :-) "Good"ness of either
language aside, the data (W3Techs is what I usually cite) is clear: For
server-side web dev, PHP is the 800 lb gorilla.

For all programming combined? Java may be bigger than PHP, sure. For
embedded? No question, Java > PHP as PHP has almost no presence. For
"enterprise shops"? There probably are segments of the market that are
very Java-centric, even on the web, no question.

It's all how you define your scope. I'm sure he could come up with some
definition of "market" that would show Java having a bigger marketshare
than PHP, within that market. The question is whether that is a valid
definition of "market" in context.

Lies, damned lies, and statistics. :-)

As countering data-points: Wordpress alone is 18% of the web. Drupal is
the #1 CMS used to power US government websites. Universities and
Museums are very big on Drupal. (That's my day job. <g>) PHP's
marketshare is huge, even in "enterprise".

--Larry Garfield

[Andy McKenzie]

I'll chime in on this one.

I've been job hunting recently, and I can say that while I've seen a lot of
people asking for Java experience, I'm not sure I've seen a single posting
asking specifically for PHP. There've been a few looking for Drupal, or
Wordpress, but no "You must be able to write PHP code to work here".

I can also say that the more I work with Java-based programs, the more I
want to see Java written into history books as a terrible idea that sadly
persisted until nearly 2014. As an example: I need to provide IT support
to people using a tool written in Java. It turns out that if you install
Java 7, the tool doesn't work at all. If you install Java 6 with the
newest updates, it works, but occasionally crashes the entire computer.
No, you have to have Java 6 update 22 in order for this software to be
reliable.

There are other tools I've used that failed completely on minor version
switches, and that just plain SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. Yes, there are going to be
minor changes when a language upgrades, that's why there are upgrades. But
they're usually minor, in a "This didn't work the way it was supposed to,
so we fixed it" kind of way. If you were taking advantage of that bug, you
get knocked down, but the vast majority of software will keep running.
Java doesn't seem to work that way, at least from an IT worker's
perspective.

Andy McKenzie

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development
is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references
do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?
Cheers,
tedd
_______________
tedd sperling
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[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Andy McKenzie
I'll chime in on this one.
I've been job hunting recently, and I can say that while I've seen a lot of
people asking for Java experience, I'm not sure I've seen a single posting
asking specifically for PHP. There've been a few looking for Drupal, or
Wordpress, but no "You must be able to write PHP code to work here".

Thats interesting. I am from Berlin and here, when you say you know PHP and
a little bit of one, or two frameworks, they will jump onto you :D

Post by Andy McKenzie
I can also say that the more I work with Java-based programs, the more I
want to see Java written into history books as a terrible idea that sadly
persisted until nearly 2014. As an example: I need to provide IT support
to people using a tool written in Java. It turns out that if you install
Java 7, the tool doesn't work at all. If you install Java 6 with the
newest updates, it works, but occasionally crashes the entire computer.
No, you have to have Java 6 update 22 in order for this software to be
reliable.
There are other tools I've used that failed completely on minor version
switches, and that just plain SHOULDN'T HAPPEN. Yes, there are going to be
minor changes when a language upgrades, that's why there are upgrades. But
they're usually minor, in a "This didn't work the way it was supposed to,
so we fixed it" kind of way. If you were taking advantage of that bug, you
get knocked down, but the vast majority of software will keep running.
Java doesn't seem to work that way, at least from an IT worker's
perspective.
Andy McKenzie

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development
is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references
do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)
http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/pl-php/all/all

http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/programming_language/ms/y

Post by Tedd Sperling
But I do not know how accurate they are.
What say you?
Cheers,
tedd
_______________
tedd sperling
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[Tedd Sperling]

Thats interesting. I am from Berlin and here, when you say you know PHP and a little bit of one, or two frameworks, they will jump onto you

I'll stay away from Berlin. :-)

tedd

_______________
tedd sperling
***@sperling.com

[PHP List]

Post by Tedd Sperling
A teacher at my college made the statement that JAVA for Web Development is more popular than PHP.
Where can I go to prove this right or wrong -- and/or -- what references do any of you have to support your answer? (sounds like a teacher, huh?)

While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be that
Java may be seen as more versatile in general programming terms. A
staggering number of enterprise level web applications are built with
Java, add to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same
knowledge.

Of course, there are many ways to make Android apps without Java - I've
written a few myself with simple HTML and Flash Builder.

I would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking
strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that crown
many times over. That said, when I was in University, it was difficult
to find a programming class that taught anything but Java - and that was
10yrs ago now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.

[Tim Streater]

Post by PHP List
While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be that
Java may be seen as more versatile in general programming terms. A
staggering number of enterprise level web applications are built with
Java, add to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same
knowledge.

To me the salient point is, does java has as extensive a library or set of interfaces to other packages (such as SQLite, mysql, etc)?

Post by PHP List
I would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking
strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that crown
many times over. That said, when I was in University, it was difficult
to find a programming class that taught anything but Java - and that was
10yrs ago now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.

Was PHP OOP-capable at the time? Perhaps the edu-bubble was simply looking down its nose at PHP. There being lots of courses proves nothing in and of itself. 20 years ago, there were lots of PC mags you could buy, which caused some folks to say "look how much better the PC is supported than other platforms". Truth was, at the time, such support was needed given the mess of 640k limits, DOS, IRQs and the like, most of which issues have ceased to be relevant.

Anyway, why should one need a course to learn PHP, assuming you already know other languages. It's simple enough.

[georg chambert]

Hi,

my I shake the subject a little; Ive been doing some PHP and found it "ok"
to work with
not so much fuss, but that was PHP4, what about PHP5 ?
Dont really checked the difference but made a short-scan and found that it
had be
screwed around with ?

Any think, should I change to 5 ?

BR georg

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Streater" <***@clothears.org.uk>
To: "PHP List" <***@arashidigital.com>; <php-***@lists.php.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 1:59 PM
Subject: [PHP] Re: PHP vs JAVA

Post by PHP List
While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be that
Java may be seen as more versatile in general programming terms. A
staggering number of enterprise level web applications are built with
Java, add to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same
knowledge.

To me the salient point is, does java has as extensive a library or set of
interfaces to other packages (such as SQLite, mysql, etc)?

Post by PHP List
I would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking
strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that crown
many times over. That said, when I was in University, it was difficult
to find a programming class that taught anything but Java - and that was
10yrs ago now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.

Was PHP OOP-capable at the time? Perhaps the edu-bubble was simply looking
down its nose at PHP. There being lots of courses proves nothing in and of
itself. 20 years ago, there were lots of PC mags you could buy, which caused
some folks to say "look how much better the PC is supported than other
platforms". Truth was, at the time, such support was needed given the mess
of 640k limits, DOS, IRQs and the like, most of which issues have ceased to
be relevant.

Anyway, why should one need a course to learn PHP, assuming you already know
other languages. It's simple enough.

--
Cheers -- Tim




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Post by PHP List
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[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by georg chambert
Hi,
my I shake the subject a little; Ive been doing some PHP and found it "ok"
to work with
not so much fuss, but that was PHP4, what about PHP5 ?
Dont really checked the difference but made a short-scan and found that it
had be
screwed around with ?
Any think, should I change to 5 ?

ehm ... serious?
http://php.net/eol.php

Post by georg chambert
BR georg
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2013 1:59 PM
Subject: [PHP] Re: PHP vs JAVA
While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be that

Post by PHP List
Java may be seen as more versatile in general programming terms. A
staggering number of enterprise level web applications are built with
Java, add to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same
knowledge.

To me the salient point is, does java has as extensive a library or set of
interfaces to other packages (such as SQLite, mysql, etc)?
I would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking

Post by PHP List
strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that crown
many times over. That said, when I was in University, it was difficult
to find a programming class that taught anything but Java - and that was
10yrs ago now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.

Was PHP OOP-capable at the time? Perhaps the edu-bubble was simply looking
down its nose at PHP. There being lots of courses proves nothing in and of
itself. 20 years ago, there were lots of PC mags you could buy, which
caused some folks to say "look how much better the PC is supported than
other platforms". Truth was, at the time, such support was needed given the
mess of 640k limits, DOS, IRQs and the like, most of which issues have
ceased to be relevant.
Anyway, why should one need a course to learn PHP, assuming you already
know other languages. It's simple enough.
--
Cheers -- Tim
------------------------------**------------------------------**
--------------------
--

Post by PHP List
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[Stuart Dallas]

my I shake the subject a little; Ive been doing some PHP and found it "ok" to work with
not so much fuss, but that was PHP4, what about PHP5 ?
Dont really checked the difference but made a short-scan and found that it had be
screwed around with ?
Any think, should I change to 5 ?

Yes, even if it's only because PHP4 hasn't been supported in any way, including security fixes, since August 7th, 2008! This fact alone makes it pretty dangerous to be using it on a public site, and that's without getting into all of the improvements that PHP5 has introduced over the past five years!

-Stuart

[Curtis Maurand]

Sorry in advance for the top post.

Use the right tool for
the Job.  I've use Java, C# and PHP.

1.  I hate the
Perl-like object calls in PHP.  I'd rather use "." notation
in C# and Java.  It saves a lot of wear and tear on my left pinky
finger.
2.  Java and C# are both typed languages.  Say what
you want, but I have working with a string like "02" and have
PHP convert that to an integer.  sometimes I want that zero in
front.  If I want that to be an integer in Java it's "int
myInteger = Integer.parseInt("02");"

3. 
Java development environments (Eclipses, NetBeans, IBM RAD) are pretty
horrible.  Visual Studio is hands down a better envrionment, even the
older versions of it. I've hooked Visual Studio into SVN in the past and
it works well.

4 PHP development environments are many and
varied and all of them suck at web debugging.  I've used PHPEdit,
Zend, Bluefish, Eclipse and a couple others.  Bluefish works better
on Linux than it does on Windows.

Use the tool for the job at
hand. 

Just my $0.02 worth.

cheers,
Curtis

On 20 Aug 2013 at 23:59,

PHP List <***@arashidigital.com> wrote:
While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be

Post by PHP List
that
Java may be seen as more versatile in

general programming terms. A

Post by PHP List
staggering number of

enterprise level web applications are built with

Post by PHP List
Java, add

to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same

Post by PHP List
knowledge.

To me the salient point is,

does java has as extensive a library or set of

interfaces to

other packages (such as SQLite, mysql, etc)?

Post by PHP List
I

would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking

Post by PHP List
strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that crown
many times over. That said, when I was in University,

it was difficult

Post by PHP List
to find a programming class that taught

anything but Java - and that

Post by PHP List
was
10yrs ago

now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.
Was PHP OOP-capable at the time? Perhaps the edu-bubble was simply
looking

down its nose at PHP. There being lots of courses proves

nothing in and of

itself. 20 years ago, there were lots of PC

mags you could buy, which

caused some folks to say "look

how much better the PC is supported than

other platforms".

Truth was, at the time, such support was needed given

the mess

of 640k limits, DOS, IRQs and the like, most of which issues have

ceased to be relevant.
Anyway, why should one

need a course to learn PHP, assuming you already

know other

languages. It's simple enough.

--
Cheers

-- Tim

--
PHP General Mailing List

(http://www.php.net/)
http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by Curtis Maurand
Sorry in advance for the top post.
Use the right tool for
the Job. I've use Java, C# and PHP.
1. I hate the
Perl-like object calls in PHP. I'd rather use "." notation
in C# and Java. It saves a lot of wear and tear on my left pinky
finger.

Actually the problem is, that the dot "." is already in use. With
$foo.bar() you cannot tell, if you want to call the method "bar()" on the
object "$foo", or if you want to concatenate the value of "$foo" to the
result of the function "bar()". There is no other way around this than a
different operator for method calls.

Post by Curtis Maurand
2. Java and C# are both typed languages. Say what
you want, but I have working with a string like "02" and have
PHP convert that to an integer. sometimes I want that zero in
front. If I want that to be an integer in Java it's "int
myInteger = Integer.parseInt("02");"
3.
Java development environments (Eclipses, NetBeans, IBM RAD) are pretty
horrible. Visual Studio is hands down a better envrionment, even the
older versions of it. I've hooked Visual Studio into SVN in the past and
it works well.

Ever tried the jetbrains products? :D (No, they don't pay me)

Post by Curtis Maurand
4 PHP development environments are many and
varied and all of them suck at web debugging. I've used PHPEdit,
Zend, Bluefish, Eclipse and a couple others. Bluefish works better
on Linux than it does on Windows.

I use PhpStorm and it works quite fine.

Post by Curtis Maurand
Use the tool for the job at
hand.
Just my $0.02 worth.
cheers,
Curtis

On 20 Aug 2013 at 23:59,

While I don't have any references to back it up - my guess would be

Post by PHP List
that
Java may be seen as more versatile in

general programming terms. A

Post by PHP List
staggering number of

enterprise level web applications are built with

Post by PHP List
Java, add

to that the possibility of writing Android apps with the same

Post by PHP List
knowledge.

To me the salient point is,

does java has as extensive a library or set of

interfaces to

other packages (such as SQLite, mysql, etc)?

Post by PHP List
I

would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect speaking

Post by PHP List
strictly in terms of web development. PHP has already won that

crown

Post by PHP List
many times over. That said, when I was in University,

it was difficult

Post by PHP List
to find a programming class that taught

anything but Java - and that

Post by PHP List
was
10yrs ago

now. I chalked it up to the education bubble not being able
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.
Was PHP OOP-capable at the time? Perhaps the edu-bubble was simply
looking

down its nose at PHP. There being lots of courses proves

nothing in and of

itself. 20 years ago, there were lots of PC

mags you could buy, which

caused some folks to say "look

how much better the PC is supported than

other platforms".

Truth was, at the time, such support was needed given

the mess

of 640k limits, DOS, IRQs and the like, most of which issues have

ceased to be relevant.
Anyway, why should one

need a course to learn PHP, assuming you already

know other

languages. It's simple enough.

--
Cheers

-- Tim

--
PHP General Mailing List

(http://www.php.net/)
http://www.php.net/unsub.php

[Curtis Maurand]

2013/8/21 Curtis Maurand

Post by Curtis Maurand
Sorry in advance for the top post.
Use the right tool for
the Job.

I've use Java, C# and PHP.

Post by Curtis Maurand
1. I hate the
Perl-like object calls in PHP. I'd rather use "."

notation

Post by Curtis Maurand
in C# and Java. It saves a lot of wear and tear on

my left pinky

Post by Curtis Maurand
finger.

Actually the problem is, that the dot "." is already in use.
With

$foo.bar() you cannot tell, if you want to call the method

"bar()" on the

object "$foo", or if you want

to concatenate the value of "$foo" to the

result of

the function "bar()". There is no other way around this than
a

different operator for method calls.

I didn't think
of that.  It seems to me there could be an easier operator than ->
which sometimes will make me stop and look at what keys I'm trying to
hit.  Just a thought.  I forgot about the concatenation operator
which is "+" in Java/C#

Post by Curtis Maurand
2.

Java and C# are both typed languages. Say what

Post by Curtis Maurand
you want,

but I have working with a string like "02" and have

Post by Curtis Maurand
PHP convert that to an integer. sometimes I want that zero

in

Post by Curtis Maurand
front. If I want that to be an integer in Java it's

"int

Post by Curtis Maurand
myInteger =

Integer.parseInt("02");"

Post by Curtis Maurand
3.
Java development environments (Eclipses, NetBeans, IBM RAD) are pretty
horrible. Visual Studio is hands down a better

envrionment, even the

Post by Curtis Maurand
older versions of it. I've hooked

Visual Studio into SVN in the past and

Post by Curtis Maurand
it works well.

Ever tried the jetbrains products? :D (No,

they don't pay me)

I have not, but it looks interesting. 
I'll have to try it.

Post by Curtis Maurand
4 PHP development environments are many and

varied and all of them suck at web debugging. I've used PHPEdit,

Post by Curtis Maurand
Zend, Bluefish, Eclipse and a couple others. Bluefish works

better

Post by Curtis Maurand
on Linux than it does on Windows.

I use PhpStorm and it works quite fine.

Post by Curtis Maurand
Use the tool for the job at
hand.
Just my $0.02 worth.
cheers,
Curtis

On 20 Aug 2013 at

23:59,

Post by Curtis Maurand
While I don't have

any references to back it up - my guess would be
that

Post by Curtis Maurand

Post by PHP List
Java may be seen as more versatile in

general programming terms. A

Post by PHP List
staggering

number of

Post by Curtis Maurand
enterprise level web applications are built

with

Post by Curtis Maurand

Post by PHP List
Java, add

to that the

possibility of writing Android apps with the same
knowledge.

Post by Curtis Maurand

To me the salient point

is,

Post by Curtis Maurand
does java has as extensive a library or set of

interfaces to

other packages (such as

SQLite, mysql, etc)?

Post by Curtis Maurand

Post by PHP List
I

would say that, in general, the other teacher is incorrect

speaking

Post by Curtis Maurand

Post by PHP List
strictly in terms of web development. PHP

has already won that

Post by Curtis Maurand
crown

Post by PHP List
many times

over. That said, when I was in University,

Post by Curtis Maurand
it was

difficult

Post by Curtis Maurand

Post by PHP List
to find a programming class that

taught

Post by Curtis Maurand
anything but Java - and that

was

Post by Curtis Maurand

Post by PHP List
10yrs ago

now. I chalked it up

to the education bubble not being able

Post by Curtis Maurand
to see what the rest of the world is actually doing.
Was PHP OOP-capable at

the time? Perhaps the edu-bubble was simply

Post by Curtis Maurand
looking

down its nose at PHP. There being lots of courses

proves

Post by Curtis Maurand
nothing in and of

itself. 20 years

ago, there were lots of PC

Post by Curtis Maurand
mags you could buy, which

caused some folks to say "look

how much

better the PC is supported than

Post by Curtis Maurand

other

platforms".

Post by Curtis Maurand
Truth was, at the time, such support was

needed given

Post by Curtis Maurand

the mess

of 640k limits,

DOS, IRQs and the like, most of which issues have
ceased to be relevant.

Post by Curtis Maurand

Anyway, why

should one

Post by Curtis Maurand
need a course to learn PHP, assuming you

already

Post by Curtis Maurand

know other

languages. It's simple

enough.

Post by Curtis Maurand

--

Cheers

Post by Curtis Maurand
-- Tim

--
PHP General Mailing List

(http://www.php.net/)

Post by Curtis Maurand
http://www.php.net/unsub.php

--
github.com/KingCrunch

[David Harkness]

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Actually the problem is, that the dot "." is already in use. With
$foo.bar() you cannot tell, if you want to call the method "bar()" on the

Post by Sebastian Krebs
object "$foo", or if you want to concatenate the value of "$foo" to the
result of the function "bar()". There is no other way around this than a
different operator for method calls.

I didn't think
of that. It seems to me there could be an easier operator than ->
which sometimes will make me stop and look at what keys I'm trying to
hit. Just a thought. I forgot about the concatenation operator
which is "+" in Java/C#

The PHP language developers were pretty stuck. Because of automatic
string-to-numeric-conversion, they couldn't use + for string concatenation.
Sadly, they chose "." rather than ".." which I believe one or two other
languages use. If they had, "." would have been available once objects
rolled around in PHP 4/5. I suspect they chose -> since that's used in C
and C++ to dereference a pointer.

Post by Sebastian Krebs

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Ever tried the jetbrains products? :D (No, they don't pay me)

I have not, but it looks interesting.
I'll have to try it.

Those are very good products which have had a strong following for a
decade. The free IDE NetBeans also has quite good support for both Java and
PHP, and the latest beta version provides a "web" project that provides
front- and back-end debugging of PHP + JavaScript. You can be stepping
through JS code and hit an AJAX call and then seamlessly step through the
PHP code that handles it.

I use NetBeans for PHP/HTML/JS (though I am evaluating JetBrains' PHPStorm
now) and Eclipse for Java. You can't beat Eclipse's refactoring support in
a free tool, though I think NetBeans is close to catching up. I would bet
IntelliJ IDEA for Java by JetBrains is on par at least.

Peace,
David

[Sebastian Krebs]

Post by David Harkness

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Actually the problem is, that the dot "." is already in use. With
$foo.bar() you cannot tell, if you want to call the method "bar()" on the

Post by Sebastian Krebs
object "$foo", or if you want to concatenate the value of "$foo" to the
result of the function "bar()". There is no other way around this than a
different operator for method calls.

I didn't think
of that. It seems to me there could be an easier operator than ->
which sometimes will make me stop and look at what keys I'm trying to
hit. Just a thought. I forgot about the concatenation operator
which is "+" in Java/C#

The PHP language developers were pretty stuck. Because of automatic
string-to-numeric-conversion, they couldn't use + for string concatenation.
Sadly, they chose "." rather than ".." which I believe one or two other
languages use. If they had, "." would have been available once objects
rolled around in PHP 4/5. I suspect they chose -> since that's used in C
and C++ to dereference a pointer.

Actually I think ".." is quite error-prone, because it is hard to
distinguish from "." or "_" on the _first_ glance, which makes the get
quickly through the code. [1]
So "." is maybe not the best choice, but also remember when it was
introduced: That was decades ago. That time it was (probably ;)) the best
choice and nowadays I don't think it is too bad at all, beside that _other_
languages use it for other purposes now ;)


[1] Yes, I know, that "_" is not an operator, but mixed with strings and
variables names it is there ;)

Post by David Harkness

Post by Sebastian Krebs

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Ever tried the jetbrains products? :D (No, they don't pay me)

I have not, but it looks interesting.
I'll have to try it.

Those are very good products which have had a strong following for a
decade. The free IDE NetBeans also has quite good support for both Java and
PHP, and the latest beta version provides a "web" project that provides
front- and back-end debugging of PHP + JavaScript. You can be stepping
through JS code and hit an AJAX call and then seamlessly step through the
PHP code that handles it.
I use NetBeans for PHP/HTML/JS (though I am evaluating JetBrains' PHPStorm
now) and Eclipse for Java. You can't beat Eclipse's refactoring support in
a free tool, though I think NetBeans is close to catching up. I would bet
IntelliJ IDEA for Java by JetBrains is on par at least.

Eclipse' code-completion and debugger never worked for me well (and most of
the time: at all). It became slower and less responsive with every release.
That was the reason I decided to leave it and I don't regret it :)

Post by David Harkness
Peace,
David

[David Harkness]

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Actually I think ".." is quite error-prone, because it is hard to
distinguish from "." or "_" on the _first_ glance, which makes the get
quickly through the code. [1]

I surround all operators except member access ("." and "->") with spaces,
so that wouldn't be a problem for me. I thought there was an older language
that used "..", but all I can find now is Lua which was developed in the
early nineties.

So "." is maybe not the best choice, but also remember when it was

Post by Sebastian Krebs
introduced: That was decades ago. That time it was (probably ;)) the best
choice and nowadays I don't think it is too bad at all, beside that _other_
languages use it for other purposes now ;)

C introduced "." as the field access operator for structs in the early
seventies, C++ kept it for object access, and Java adopted it in the early
nineties. C's use of pointers required a way to access members through a
pointer, and I suppose K&R thought "->" looked like following a pointer (I
agree).

Since PHP was modeled on Perl and wouldn't implement objects or structs for
another decade, it adopted "." for string concatenation. It works fine, and
I don't have too much trouble bouncing back-and-forth. I honestly would
have preferred "." to be overloaded when the left hand side was an object.
In the rare cases that you want to convert an object to a string to be
concatenated with the RHS, you can always cast it to string, use strval(),
or call __toString() manually. But I'm not staging any protests over the
use of "->". :)

Post by Sebastian Krebs
Eclipse' code-completion and debugger never worked for me well (and most
of the time: at all). It became slower and less responsive with every
release. That was the reason I decided to leave it and I don't regret it :)

I agree about the slowness, and until this latest release I've always left
autocompletion manual (ctrl + space). They did something with Kepler to
speed it up drastically, so much so I have it turned on with every
keypress. However, it's a little too aggressive in providing choices.
Typing "null" which is a Java keyword as in PHP, it will insert
"nullValue()" which is a method from Hamcrest. :( After a couple weeks of
this, I think I'll be switching it back to manual activation. I can type
quickly enough that I only need it when I'm not sure of a method name.

NetBeans, while not as good with refactoring and plugin support, is still
zippier than Eclipse. And my short time with the JetBrains products found
them to be fast as well. Eclipse's PHP support via PDT is not nearly as
good as NetBeans, and no doubt PHPStorm beats them both.

Peace,
David